Ford is losing boatloads of money on every electric vehicle sold

[WhiteLeaff]

A) Any R&D spent in lowering the cost of individual batteries has to be repaid at some point because R&D money has to come from somewhere.

B) The real battery problem is their energy density. Adding batteries currently adds enough weight that you then have to add even more batteries to haul that weight around.

If tomorrow a new battery type could hold 10X the energy and recharge 20X as fast at the same size, weight, and cost, WAY MORE people would be interested in EVs (and they could be made cheaper than today's and handle better too)

(Props on the graph inclusion in your comment!)

I have no idea what you are talking about, CATL is a battery manufacturer, they have continuously lowered prices and maintained profitability and very high investments in expansion and R&D. They are not going to suddenly raise prices in the midst of fierce competition with other manufacturers. the problem in the accident in my view is that there is no competition, this gives freedom for this to happen:

"In some foreign showrooms, BYD charges more than double — sometimes nearly triple — the price it gets for three key models in China, according to a Reuters review of the automaker’s pricing in five of its biggest export markets.

Take the BYD Atto 3, a compact electric crossover. In China, the midrange version sells for $19,283. In Germany, the little SUV is priced at $42,789 — a price that’s still competitive with comparable electric vehicles in that market.

The differential, in part, reflects cutthroat competition in China, the world’s largest auto market, where dozens of EV brands are waging a price war. BYD’s entry-level Seagull electric hatchback sells for less than $10,000 at home"

Why BYD’s EV exports sell for twice the China price

By Nick Carey and Ben Klayman LONDON (Reuters) - U.S. and European politicians have raised alarms that their domestic auto industries could be destroyed by a wave of cheap Chinese electric vehicles. But so far, China's top EV maker, BYD, has dramat...

wkzo.com

 

[yRaz]

What does "like" mean. Like as in Ice Cream??

Well, you see, I have this kookaburra in my gastrointestinal system right now and it, like, makes me talk like that.

 

[Dirtrider650]

How can the stock holders of ford motor company allow it to lose 5 billion dollars in a year without rolling heads , if I was a stock holder ford you no longer be making electric vehicles and I'd tell Joe Biden and his cronnies to piss up.a rope it no wonder we have to pay a 100k for a truck now the American people need to stop buying cars and let them go broke and they will stop this insanity but most of the American people are the stupidest people on the planet any way .
But Ford Gm And stellantis is pricing 60 and 70 k trucks at 100k to make up for this loss they are taking on electric vehicles and it makes sense too I think it time WE THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES stopped buying cars and let the big three go broke then they just might listen to the people and build vehicles we want instead of ramming something down our throats .

 

[NumberNine]

Stop trying to make phones with wheels on them to sell data and stick with making functional efficient vehicles.

 

[mattferg]

Ford is selling their EV's for *less than they cost to make* and you think the high price is "mostly company greed". Seriously? How does that math work in your head?

EVs are expensive because A) the tech is not ready, B) most people don't want EVs, and C) the government is forcing companies to make them anyway. I will explain the latter so you don't misunderstand. More people wanting EVs allows greater scale which lowers the cost per unit (I.e., economies of scale).

The reason companies are willing to sell EVs *below cost* is A) the government is making them sell a certain amount of EVs and B) in the hopes that if they can sell enough of them, they can get enough of a scale efficiency to make them profitable.

They can't "just sell less" because they have already bought all the really expensive equipment to make any EVs and the only way that makes financial sense is if they can spread these large fixed costs over enough units that it doesn't raise the individual prices too much.

This whole companies set prices "because greed" talking point of politicians instead of the reality that they have to first pay for all of the expenses of making the product before they can make any profit whatsoever is just tiresome.

A) the tech is ready, has been for some time
B) studies show overwhelmingly that most people want EVs if they’re cheaper
C) companies don’t want to make them as the repair costs are massively lower and services is where they make money now.

Please don’t present your feelings as fact again.

 

[brucek]

Ford is losing boatloads of money

Might it be truckloads of money?

 

[Neatfeatguy]

A) the tech is ready, has been for some time
B) studies show overwhelmingly that most people want EVs if they’re cheaper
C) companies don’t want to make them as the repair costs are massively lower and services is where they make money now.

Please don’t present your feelings as fact again.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but if you want to tell someone "Please don't present your feelings as fact again", then you need to provide proof of what you claim as well.

Links to your points A, B and C if you want others to know you're giving "facts" and not your "personal feelings".

If you turn around and tell others to just search for it their selves, you're not helping your point. Posting facts to prove your point is just like writing a paper in school; write up your collected info and provide sources for said data.

 

[DanteSmith]

I have no idea what you are talking about, CATL is a battery manufacturer, they have continuously lowered prices and maintained profitability and very high investments in expansion and R&D. They are not going to suddenly raise prices in the midst of fierce competition with other manufacturers. the problem in the accident in my view is that there is no competition, this gives freedom for this to happen:

"In some foreign showrooms, BYD charges more than double — sometimes nearly triple — the price it gets for three key models in China, according to a Reuters review of the automaker’s pricing in five of its biggest export markets.

Take the BYD Atto 3, a compact electric crossover. In China, the midrange version sells for $19,283. In Germany, the little SUV is priced at $42,789 — a price that’s still competitive with comparable electric vehicles in that market.

The differential, in part, reflects cutthroat competition in China, the world’s largest auto market, where dozens of EV brands are waging a price war. BYD’s entry-level Seagull electric hatchback sells for less than $10,000 at home"

Why BYD’s EV exports sell for twice the China price

By Nick Carey and Ben Klayman LONDON (Reuters) - U.S. and European politicians have raised alarms that their domestic auto industries could be destroyed by a wave of cheap Chinese electric vehicles. But so far, China's top EV maker, BYD, has dramat...

wkzo.com

Sometimes it seems exactly like that, off-grid power stations and batteries have barely dropped in price in half a decade. Maybe it's just me, but it seems to me that this green wave is helping to make a lot of people rich quickly, maintaining higher profit margins than most industries achieve.

 

[toooooot]

How can the stock holders of ford motor company allow it to lose 5 billion dollars in a year without rolling heads , if I was a stock holder ford you no longer be making electric vehicles and I'd tell Joe Biden and his cronnies to piss up.a rope it no wonder we have to pay a 100k for a truck now the American people need to stop buying cars and let them go broke and they will stop this insanity but most of the American people are the stupidest people on the planet any way .
But Ford Gm And stellantis is pricing 60 and 70 k trucks at 100k to make up for this loss they are taking on electric vehicles and it makes sense too I think it time WE THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES stopped buying cars and let the big three go broke then they just might listen to the people and build vehicles we want instead of ramming something down our throats .

They wanted to get some of that cash Tesla was steadily acquiring. They did not want to jump on this train when it is too late.
And I do not think it is too late, it depends on how things unravel with development of cheaper batteries and better technologies that help them last longer in heat or cold.

 

[Underdog]

So clearly the technology is not ready, the battery technology. Even the Americans aren't ready for a more expensive car with a shorter range and higher repair costs.

 

[Endymio]

A) the tech is ready, has been for some time
B) studies show overwhelmingly that most people want EVs if they’re cheaper
C) companies don’t want to make them as the repair costs are massively lower and services is where they make money now.

A) Your feelings presented as facts
B) Studies -- as well as basic economics -- show people overwhelmingly want ANYTHING that's cheaper than their current options. EVs don't qualify though.
C) The exact opposite of the truth. If you doubt this, read about the Rivian owner who was faced with a $42,000 repair bill for a trivial fender-bender.

 

[TheBigT42]

Do you know how badly I want a plug in hybrid truck? Like, let me charge it at my house at night and if I happen to get low on battery when using it AS A TRUCK, then the gas motor/generator is there. Most days I'm just carrying a few hundred pounds of tools around with me, but on the few days a month when I need to pick up a ton of gravel or tow a trailer it would be great. I would save so much money in gas by being able to charge at home. Even if my range goes from 300 to 100 when towing, l get like 8MPG when towing. I would easily save $30-40 in gas and I rarely work more than 50-60 miles away from home. Not to mention the hybrid systems are more fuel efficient anyway. A 100KWh battery pack would cost me about $20 to charge where as a tank of gas costs me almost $150 to fill.

Check out the RAM 1500 RAMCharger

https://www.ramtrucks.com/electric/ram-1500-ramcharger.html

 

[ScottSoapbox]

I have no idea what you are talking about, CATL is a battery manufacturer, they have continuously lowered prices and maintained profitability and very high investments in expansion and R&D. They are not going to suddenly raise prices in the midst of fierce competition with other manufacturers. the problem in the accident in my view is that there is no competition, this gives freedom for this to happen:

"In some foreign showrooms, BYD charges more than double — sometimes nearly triple — the price it gets for three key models in China, according to a Reuters review of the automaker’s pricing in five of its biggest export markets.

Take the BYD Atto 3, a compact electric crossover. In China, the midrange version sells for $19,283. In Germany, the little SUV is priced at $42,789 — a price that’s still competitive with comparable electric vehicles in that market.

The differential, in part, reflects cutthroat competition in China, the world’s largest auto market, where dozens of EV brands are waging a price war. BYD’s entry-level Seagull electric hatchback sells for less than $10,000 at home"

Why BYD’s EV exports sell for twice the China price

By Nick Carey and Ben Klayman LONDON (Reuters) - U.S. and European politicians have raised alarms that their domestic auto industries could be destroyed by a wave of cheap Chinese electric vehicles. But so far, China's top EV maker, BYD, has dramat...

wkzo.com

China doesn't have the same regulations for safety and emissions that the US and EU have. Thus, they have some REALLY cheap EVs like less $10K cheap. That changes the market dramatically.

Second, governments add import tariffs to "protect domestic firms" which to a certain extent is fair as government regulations often are part of the price difference. But largely they keep out competition which would tend to drive prices down.

 

[ScottSoapbox]

A) the tech is ready, has been for some time
B) studies show overwhelmingly that most people want EVs if they’re cheaper
C) companies don’t want to make them as the repair costs are massively lower and services is where they make money now.

Please don’t present your feelings as fact again.

Wrong on all counts. You are just trying to redefine things to make your argument valid.

A) The tech is not ready to compete with gas vehicles at its current performance (range and refueling) and cost. Gas cars have a longer range and can refuel faster than you can take a bathroom break on a road trip. These are areas where EVs are undeniably behind. Just because someone has a use case that sidesteps these limitations (e.g., never leaving a few city miles of home) does not negate them. Further, the EV charging infrastructure is still fragmented, limited, and often broken - even if you have 3-6 hours to wait for charging. EVs cost more than gas vehicles - sometimes even after a government handout to buy the EV.

B) People would overwhelmingly want a Ferrari for cheaper too. This is a meaningless argument. If anything, it proves that EVs cost too much (see point A).

I mean, by your logic, "the tech is ready, has been for some time" to take tourists to the international space station. The fact that in its current form, it costs $1M a seat doesn't matter because people would want it if it were cheaper.

C) Car dealers make money on service. Car manufacturers make money on cars (and financing of said cars). Further, while EV motors have lower maintenance, the battery replacement cost is huge.

And I was unaware that explaining how economies of scale work was 'presenting my feelings'. Maybe make your banter make sense next time.

 

[bwbeam]

I doubt that logic, even from the Automakers. Sure, the screen might be cheaper to put in, but you’ve then got to spend the money on programming the damn thing, a way more expensive computer behind the scenes to actually run the software and design everything.

With physical buttons, you don’t need a GPU at all, no difficult programming since each switch does a single job, no UI design, and buttons just work, you don’t need to push out updates to make the buttons work more reliably.

I own a 2018 Toyota Rav 4 and I hate the touch screen , it's a pain in the *** to use especially when you're 72 years old.And I also hate the fact that you can't buy a car with a cd player , I have to go through all the BS just to get the music on my phone to play and up till I bought this vehicle I never had music on my phone

 

[Neatfeatguy]

I own a 2018 Toyota Rav 4 and I hate the touch screen , it's a pain in the *** to use especially when you're 72 years old.And I also hate the fact that you can't buy a car with a cd player , I have to go through all the BS just to get the music on my phone to play and up till I bought this vehicle I never had music on my phone

If you have Windows PC at home with a dvd drive you could use Windows Media Player to copy your CDs to .mp3. Then you can just copy all the files to a thumb drive and connect it to the USB port in your car.

My 2016 Mazda CX-5 actually came with a CD player in it - surprised the hell out of me when I got it. To be honest, I drove the car for probably 6 months before I even noticed it....it's just tucked away right up above the in-dash touch screen. However, I've found it easier to just play my music off .mp3 files from a USB stick over swapping around discs.

Windows Media Player (WMP) isn't the best program I've used over the years to convert CD music to .mp3, but it is free to use with Windows and does a good enough job. If you have discs that have lots of scuffs/scratches on it, WMP will struggle with copying those songs and you may find that some tracks (because of heavy scuffing/scratches on the disc) don't copy properly. You'll have songs that run into the next track or overlap and....well, that's what you get with damaged physical media when copying it to .mp3 using WMP.